SPOILERS Agents of Mayhem - A Critique

[SharksAreCool]

As if that mod was truly made by one person and would've been possible to make without the help of the GTA modding community, which is vastly bigger than Saints Row's for a number of reasons - none of which are Volition's fault by the way.

Starting with the fact that it's a better game, and a much more attractive modding platform as a result. For most people Saints Row isn't even worth playing, let alone modding, and that IS entirely Volition's fault.

Now I don't want to descredit the maker of this amazing mod

I do. That prick is charging for mods now, or trying to. His mods get pirated more than Netflix series.

...but I'm pretty sure he relied on tools by others that required thousands of manhours to craft. I unfortunately don't know enough about the GTA modding scene to say just how much of a team effort it was to build the tools necessary for extracting and modifying archives, 3d models, textures, animations, VFX , SFX, scripts etc. but I can say that it simply wasn't feasible for this community to reach that level of control over the SR games (at least not yet, who knows what the future holds). Instead, all SR mods that exist today where made with a comperatively small toolset by amazingly talented individuals such as but not limited to Minimaul, Scanti, Quantum (who developed his own tools to make his Working Elevators mod, so don't downplay the challenge that one posed) plus Mike Wilson, Randall Hess and Rob Rypka from Volition. This is also part of the reason why it took so long for modders to make custom 3d models for SR3/4: Of the few people on this site, no single one had the time/specialization to reverse engineer the 3d model format and build tools to export such files.

Pretty much all of 3rd party RAGE development is done through OpenIV, an SDK that entered development shortly after GTA IV's 360 release and finally came out a few days after the PC release. I don't remember exactly how many there were initially, but currently it's being worked on by 5 people, with no access to the source code, barely any resources, and no help from Rockstar whatsoever. All while under constant fear of legal action being taken by Take-Two, so don't ask me to pity the Saints Row IV guys, please.

The other thing that restricted this community for the longest time were memory restrictions. Even if you could make custom content, there was a good chance that the game would crash or break in a different way upon loading the mod. Don't ask me why such severe limitations aren't present in GTA games, possibly due to the scope of those projects/ the size of the teams that worked on them (when you have more than 200 people in the art department alone, you better make sure your game is more forgiving when it comes to high memory usage), but they needed to be patched out in SR4 by Volition employees who supported this modding community. So yes, Volition did give us modding in a way - at least modding that goes beyond tweaking gameplay values or replacing existing content.

I'm no programming guru, but I did study programming in college and I passed, so I'd like to think I'm not completely clueless. And frankly "memory restrictions" sounds like the most vague excuse imaginable. The GTA games have limitations as well, concrete, hardcoded limitations that the mod makers have never been able to bypass. Did that stop them? No. Why? Because they were motivated.

Like I said earlier, you can't expect people to create quality content and improve your game when you're not willing to do that yourself. Mods can only be as good as the game they are made for. And if a game is good enough, people will be motivated enough to make their own development kits. That's how most of the popular modding platforms got started.

I hope you now know enough about this community's struggles to not take this stuff for granted or say things like "nobody gave us modding". That's just insulting to the people who keep on pouring heart, sweat and tears into making free enhancements for your games, however insignificant you might find them.

It's also a fact. Modding in general as well as Saints Row modding were a thing long before Volition got involved.

I'm not taking modding for granted, I'm not taking it at all, I don't want it. What I want is for developers to stop releasing sub-par products and using mod support to justify it. That's like pretending to sell somebody a sports car, only instead you give them a station wagon and a can of spraypaint so they can put stripes on it and call it a sports car, all while pretending you were doing them a favor. Best case scenario they also receive a tool box, which allows them to install after market parts and improve the car, but at the end of they day they're still stuck with a station wagon when they were promised a sports car.

As someone who used to be heavily involved in GTA modding ages ago, Saints Row in general has never been on that level. Like at its peak the GTA modding community was big enough to rival that of the Bethesda modding communities. Having mod tools developed by teams of a dozen or more people, having giant total conversion mods, being able to port assets with some relative ease because of how many tutorials readily exist, and more. The GTA modding community has been booming for a long time because 3, Vice City, and San Andreas all used the same engine even. Modding tools were able to be fine tuned and developed for like a full decade. GTA4 rolled out and was a major set back for a while, and 5 has also had some issues at first but came back. The OpenIV dev team is fairly large for what it is.

Actually, it consists of only five people. Six if you count the support guy.

Sure, there are a lot more people contributing to it than just the OpenIV team itself, with feedback if nothing else. But why do you think that is? Why do you think so few people jump to help the Saints Row team develop the SDK? Is it because they don't want to? Or is it because it's so unattractive as a modding platform that there aren't many people who can get involved to begin with? The sales figures speak for themselves.

Comparing a mod that uses an altered version of the flying script from the Iron Man mod that's existed for quite a while, then using ported assets from the Spiderman game doesn't really stack up to the effort a lot of us have had to go through for even the smallest progress at times.

I'm sure you've had to endure a lot of sleepless nights to make that minigun retexture, but it's pretty hard to appreciate it when the game itself feels like it was phoned in. A mod is only as good as the game it was made for.

If I'm not mistaking the original Iron Man mod was made by the same person. Even if it wasn't, the GTA V version as well as a lot of other mods were. He specializes in porting features from other games to GTA V (which makes the fact that he's charging money for them that much more infuriating, greedy fuck) but he does it very well, and many agree that he's one of the most talented programmers in the GTA community. If Green Goblin was a shitty example, feel free to pick something else: https://www.youtube.com/user/GTAScripting/videos

That's my whole point. Volition HELPS modders. Volition even HIRES modders! They're basically saying to modders, "Hey, we like what you're doing, and we'll help!" I think that's really cool. And it's a big reason I've been so loyal to this modding community.

And any day now it's going to pay off, right?

Gat Out of Hell was a $20 stand-alone add on, so I think it was fine for that price. They created a whole new map for Gat Out of Hell, which, for me, was better than the rehashed SR4 map. Yes, it didn't have the features of a full Saints Row game, but it never claimed to be a full Saints Row game so I set my expectations accordingly.

For once they actually benefited from the fact that Saints Row has such a small fanbase, otherwise I'm pretty sure they would've gotten sued for false advertising. They marketed Gat Out of Hell as a Saints Row IV expansion when it was really just a spin-off.

It was a separate instance of Saints Row IV, only with most of it's core features stripped away, a much smaller map, a two hour campaign and a terrible parody of a Disney musical moment. In other words Agents of Mayhem only priced accordingly (sort of).

For Saints Row IV DLC, I think "How the Saints Save Christmas" was truly awesome! It's like a Norman Rockwell painting come to life in only the way Volition can do it. Honestly, I play it every Christmas. Again, it's not a full Saints Row game, but it's really enjoyable and well worth the price.

It was the best DLC by far, but that's not saying anything considering the others are either cut content, recycled content or just plain rubbish. And while it was the best DLC from an objective standpoint, it kinda' took the term "acquired taste" to a new level from a subjective standpoint...

It's hard for me to say this, but Agents of Mayhem was a bit of a disappointment to me, personally, and not because it's a bad game. It's not a bad game, and I actually love the world they created. I've completed all the missions and have enjoyed many hours exploring it. And I think it was a great idea to set it in South Korea, which gives it an awesome exotic feel. But I think, because Volition had already set the bar so high with SR2 and SR3, I just expected more. I first got involved with modding Saints Row 3 because it had everything GTA had but with the addition of awesome character customization, a very cool sense of style, and a mischievous sense of fun that GTA just didn't (and still doesn't) have. And, they created some very lovable characters (Johnny Gat, Shaundi, Pierce, Kinzie, even the evil ones like Dane Vogel). Ever since SR3, I've been hoping to see a proper new Saints Row game like Saints Row 2 or 3 but with updated graphics. I thought they had such a winning formula with the earlier Saints Row games, and I just don't feel that AOM has the same appeal that the earlier Saints Row franchise had. I'd love to see them take that technology and apply it to a new Saints Row game.

I agree that the setting of Agents of Mayhem is more interesting than anything we've seen this decade so far, or at least it would be if it were done right. But at the end of the day that's probably the only good thing I have to say about Agents of Mayhem.

Perhaps. I'm still not clear why the powers-that-be decided to change direction on a winning formula. I guess they just got bored. If you look at the average Metacritic reviews, SR2 and SR3 were the highest (I used the Xbox ratings because the PC version of SR2 was just a bad port), and it's been slipping after that. Boredom aside, from a business perspective, something like SR2 or SR3 would be the way to go. Customization, cars, boats, aircraft, cribs, no superpowers, no aliens, no superheros, no cartoons. It seems to be what the public likes.

Yeah I think that's the most likely scenario. They got tired of busting their asses trying to compete in the open-world market just to lose because the other guy had a better marketing team behind them. Nobody hates Rockstar's business model more than me, so I can sympathize with Volition on that, but that's no excuse to start delivering sub-par games. I've kept my mouth shut up until Agents of Mayhem because they made games that (although kinda' meh) were at least playable, didn't have intrusive DRM and would drop in price fairly quickly. But all bets went off when Denuvo got on.

I think it's a shame, because if we take sales out of the equation Volition won the race in 2008 by a landslide. They understood what made a great open-world game, whereas the only thing Rockstar understood was how to increase your game's overall reception by ensuring that only a handful of people can actually play it.

 

[Quantum]

I think it's a shame, because if we take sales out of the equation Volition won the race in 2008 by a landslide. They understood what made a great open-world game, whereas the only thing Rockstar understood was how to increase your game's overall reception by ensuring that only a handful of people can actually play it.

Volition did win, and those of us who loved the Saints Row games back then know they were better than GTA. I just don't think Volition knew what they had. I don't even think a lot of the reviewers knew what they had. I really just hope they realize it before they go further down the wrong road. And, yes, that is my opinion, but, as I said, the user reviews are indicating the same thing.

 

[50percentJoe]

 

[SharksAreCool]

I can't come up with anything intelligent to say so I'll just post some stupid meme or something.

How original you are mate.

 

[50percentJoe]

How original you are mate.

You hit the nail on the head there buddy, it sure is a meme.

 

[linkfire12]

I actually do agree with Sharks on the problems with ethical practices and manipulative business tactics within the games industry, and the issues journalists have.

I don't necessarily think Volition is the one to blame, in an industry with Warner Brothers, Polygon, Kotaku, EA, Ubisoft and... Konami....
Although I will say, the preorder bonus wasn't a wise idea, and I highly suspect it didn't help sales, gamers are much more willing to support goodwill, even with the idea that the game is finalized earlier on and additional content is worked on, the fact it is ready at release still makes is bizarre to consider it "additional content" to me. It doesn't help sales, it causes customers to dislike the company, and if the time was spent working on free or post launch content (or polishing the game), it would be much more favorable in the eyes of consumers.

I like Volition, and hope they are able to improve in the future, I think it is fair to give tough criticism for Agents Of Mayhem, and I do somewhat agree on a fair amount of his points, although not as strongly, and not as harshly towards Volition in particular.

Same way game publishers see piracy as an easy way to rationalize intrusive DRM, poor optimization. zero quality assurance, day one DLC, micro-transactions, lack of customer support, early access scams, modding monetization, cutting and re-selling content (a favorite of Volition's), claiming copyright and demanding 75% off YouTube videos, bribing the journalists they can and suing or censoring the ones they can't, and the list goes on.

These are all significant issues within the gaming industry, and it's important to acknowledge that, so I definitely agree. I don't necessarily think Volition is at fault (although Deep Silver doesn't have a good reputation so far, certain games they have published do not put them in a good light), but I also think tough love is important.

I do disagree on the visuals (mostly) the game does seem rather pretty (although I have issues with the pedestrians in particular, and also there is some weird shading/lighting that looks really washed out, especially in Legion Lairs or characters under bright lights).

Although I can not play this unless optimization is resolved, straight up, that is a huge oversight.

Edit:

I also completely agree with Shark about the dlc and "expansion" (that didn't expand the game), they were huge disappointments.

I absolutely hate the micro cosmetic dlc's that eat at your wallet, and how poorly made the outfits were, they were low resolution, buggy, often clipped into things, had poor colour customization, and were almost always one piece outfits, so you couldn't mix and match or customize your style. You had to be a silly trope character, you couldn't use clothing articles you liked and created interesting styles, you had to be a cowboy who only wears one outfit with low res clothes and a clipping hat, basically.

Plus the ethical issue of piece meal cosmetic dlc, instead of substantial content packs, if the expansion pack added to the main game, and also expanded customization, that would be much more engaging than a fart gun and overalls, which, again, you can't customize or modify whatsoever.

The Dominatrix dlc was awful, in my opinion, I had very little fun with it, the writing felt off and forced, and I felt like it was telling me about all the fun I wasn't going to have constantly (and it also brought in Zimos for some god awful reason).

The Christmas dlc, like shark said is "objectively" the best dlc content wise, it added a new activity, more open environments for the missions, and more content, but, it was absolutely an acquired taste.

I really dislike forced tacky themes, and I don't enjoy christmas themes ( I could if the game does it really well, but I haven't seen that)

I especially hated how everyone mocked and forced the main character into doing things, oh you don't have interest in a holiday? A cyborg shall slam you onto a desk and you aren't able to retaliate because cutscene. A complete nitpick, I am aware, but the overall tone in SR4 where the player character gets undermined is my most disliked part of the game, and is the main reason I dislike Kinsie.

With a game with such a customizable character, being forced to play the mocked idiot really gets on my nerves, I don't expect dialogue trees, but a little agency in your personality would be nice, even if it's just subtly cosmetic. I value intelligence, and I tried to RP my character as such, so the dialogue moments got on my nerves. Especially with Kinsie directly insulting people, never getting called out for it, and acting superior because of fictional magic hacking powers, that supposedly make her better despite being a Deus Ex Machina. And also guilting the main character for.... something? That scene had no impact for me, because I didn't really care for Gat, despite being overall immoral, I could not recall the protagonist doing anything wrong to her crew, and I was also busy being confused by "Wait Viola is dead? That seems like a waste of character..."

Alright, very silly tangent over, sorry.