What do you think about the Boss of the Third Street Saints? *Spoiler alert!*

[DataSnake]

On the subject of Julius, here's his speech at the end of SR1:

We did it, Playa. 3rd Street owns this town. Now, that's not to say that shit didn't cost, and I ain't talkin' about what happened to Johnny's leg or losing Lin. Those two were soldiers, they knew the risk. Hell, Johnny gets off on it. But we crushed a lot of families playa, and someday they're gonna holla at us. But believe me when I tell you, we did the right thing. With the Rollerz wiped out, Benjamin gone, and the Colombians in our pocket, there ain't gonna be a need for a gang war ever again. And in the end, that's gonna save a lot more lives than we took. So relax, playa, you've earned yourself a break.

From that and his taped conversations with Troy, it's pretty obvious what happened: he decided to destroy the Saints to keep his own ass out of jail. He knew that the boss would never turn their back on Stilwater and let new gangs take root, so they had to be taken out of the picture. It wasn't about "drugs being pushed" or he never would have made a deal with the Colombians in the first place. It wasn't about "innocent people being killed" because he knew damn well that there would be a whole lot more people caught in the crossfire as new gangs sprang up to fill the power vacuum left by the fall of the Saints. He just decided that betraying someone who had just saved his life and condemning an entire city to another round of gang warfare was preferable to facing the consequences of his actions. And he then turns around and says that he isn't a sociopath? Nothing the boss did in any of the games was as amoral as that.

 

[Mist3475]

Where, exactly, does the boss do this? He makes jokes about having a butler, but it sounds to me like he intended to set the Zin Empire free from slavery.

The bit where they sit on the throne and make all the Zin bow to them.

If you were paying attention to the banter with Zinyak, the boss points out that the only reason that they follow him is out of fear, and that without him instigating that fear, they'd be free to do as they please.

From everything I've seen, the boss is very big on free will and self-determinism.

As long as you do what the Saints want.

You make your choices, and the boss understands that the sometimes you make bad ones, in the case of Keith David. That's why he gave Keith a chance to prove himself by permitting those Zin to just lay him out. He was giving Keith a chance to turn things around, because he wanted another option other than killing him.

So... allowing himself to be kicked around just to help a friend see the error of their ways? Yeah. Pretty humble.

Implying that wasn't a case of cutscene incompetence.

 

[Mist3475]

On the subject of Julius, here's his speech at the end of SR1:



From that and his taped conversations with Troy, it's pretty obvious what happened: he decided to destroy the Saints to keep his own ass out of jail. He knew that the boss would never turn their back on Stilwater and let new gangs take root, so they had to be taken out of the picture. It wasn't about "drugs being pushed" or he never would have made a deal with the Colombians in the first place. It wasn't about "innocent people being killed" because he knew damn well that there would be a whole lot more people caught in the crossfire as new gangs sprang up to fill the power vacuum left by the fall of the Saints. He just decided that betraying someone who had just saved his life and condemning an entire city to another round of gang warfare was preferable to facing the consequences of his actions. And he then turns around and says that he isn't a sociopath? Nothing the boss did in any of the games was as amoral as that.

That doesn't really make sense, because if the Saints remained in control he'd have little to fear from the police.
Obviously he doesn't want to go to jail, but that's more of a consequence of his decision to take down the Boss and not the cause.
The Boss was simply too much of a sociopath to leave in charge, and SR2 proved that. Ultor for all it's flaws at least has a profit motive to keep the people happy whereas the Saints unchecked would do what they liked.

Nobody ever said Julius was innocent, or that he had the perfect solution. But he was still right.

 

[kraidy117]

I disagree. Julius was a bad leader who decided to push all blame on the Boss despite the fact he did far more damage then the boss ever did. He sold out, betrayed everyone and pushed all mistakes on the Boss instead of taking any responsibilities for himself while also being a coward. Getting shot in the church was mercy.

 

[Tayot84]

I find it odd that people want the boss to be some confused hero, Saints Row has always been revenge driven and while that makes hero's out of some people the best revenge stories are outlaws killing outlaws or outlaws destroying corrupt organizations and Saints Row has a good story.

 

[Tatsuya1221]

I find it odd that people want the boss to be some confused hero, Saints Row has always been revenge driven and while that makes hero's out of some people the best revenge stories are outlaws killing outlaws or outlaws destroying corrupt organizations and Saints Row has a good story.

Even as a fan of 3 and 4 i'll admit that the reason is, most people do not like being evil, most like being heroes, it's quite simple actually.

As for it always being about revenge, 4 kind of changed that, while the boss and the saints want revenge against zinyak, their goals in 4 is more or less freedom from his tyranny, both for themselves, and the human race.

Different strokes for different folks, but that's my take on it.

 

[MrGarry2u]

Even as a fan of 3 and 4 i'll admit that the reason is, most people do not like being evil, most like being heroes, it's quite simple actually.

As for it always being about revenge, 4 kind of changed that, while the boss and the saints want revenge against zinyak, their goals in 4 is more or less freedom from his tyranny, both for themselves, and the human race.

Different strokes for different folks, but that's my take on it.

In the early games it was a competitor for that other crime game, so they had to try and out violence it, try and out comedy it, try and out stylise it... now they don't give a shit about that other game because it's become it's own thing. I like where Saints Row has gone and I remember where it came from.
I just don't know where the hell they're going! lol

 

[kraidy117]

In the early games it was a competitor for that other crime game, so they had to try and out violence it, try and out comedy it, try and out stylise it... now they don't give a shit about that other game because it's become it's own thing. I like where Saints Row has gone and I remember where it came from.
I just don't know where the hell they're going! lol

Pretty much. I still enjoy playing SR and Sr2, but I also love playing Sr4 and can't wait to see where Vol goes given how SR4 ended. It opens many possible doors.

 

[AuldWolf]

There are times when I just wish overly argumentative types would save face and choose the wiser path -- to not post.

The bit where they sit on the throne and make all the Zin bow to them.

Okay, so, where in the game does the boss say "Now, you must all bow down to me!"?

They bow to him as a sign of respect for the incredible feat of overthrowing Zinyak. The rest is headcanon unless explicitly stated within the game. Speaking of being explicitly stated -- you can play the fight with Zinyak and listen for yourself, the boss is very intent on freeing the Zin from slavery.

Headcanon doesn't make for a valid argument.

As long as you do what the Saints want.

Where is this said, precisely?

Headcanon doesn't make for a valid argument.

Implying that wasn't a case of cutscene incompetence.

That's the most throwaway excuse I've ever heard.

"This scene of the game doesn't fit my Saints Row fan-fictions, so I'm just going to say that the writers were incompetent. This scene doesn't fit either. Oh, heck, let's just pretend the game didn't happen and that my fan-fiction is the only valid canon."

You're silly.

So, ultimately, I can sum up my rebuttal as thus:

Headcanon doesn't make for a valid argument.

 

[AuldWolf]

I find it odd that people want the boss to be some confused hero [...]

It's all to do with what Saints Row IV is. It's a very clever piss-take of the history of video gaming, and pretty much every hero in everything has been just what you've described there.

Even in older RPGs, you'd randomly kill people without ascertaining their guilt, and rob other people blind. You were a sociopathic-kleptomaniac, out to save the world from corruption and evil.

I appreciated the good humour of it, and how the boss was trying to find some justification for all the craziness and death they cause, as pretty much every video game character does.

Saints Row has always been revenge driven [...]

So, they changed it up with the fourth game. They don't have to make the exact same experience time and again, with only slight variation. That's a cancer that kills franchises from the inside.

They decided to do something different to reinvigorate the franchise.

To be honest, I'd even say they started doing that from Saints Row III, which was already much less serious and more of a satire of the cult of celebrity surrounding contemporary gang-culture. Each game in the series has been very much less serious than the last.